Am I crazy, or a bit sensible wanting a Chris King Ti headset to go with my RSL, I mean I already have a standard black one which looks fantastic.........
Whats the consensus view here guys ???
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Satellite
MemberRoadiesean,
I asked this same question back in the day when I bought my VaMoots SL Oct 2003. JonC answered and said, "DO NOT use a Ti Headset in a Moots, NOT with a whole bucket of antiseize", (or something like that).
Anyways best of luck with the RSL,
Satellite
Posted 1 year ago # -
wrpercival
MemberThat seems very logical, but it looks like the King Ti headset has a polished finish on it. If you have color-matched components on the rest of the bike, I'd wonder whether introducing a "polished" part into the design would be a net-negative given the satin-bead finish on the rest of the bike.
Probably over thinking this and the aesthetics are "moot" (ha ha!) if the frame and headset metals are somehow incompatible.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Gents,
We would steer clear of using the Ti headset in a Moots frame. Ti on Ti press fit does not go well.....no amount of grease/antiseize will make it better.Stick to the AL version!
Thanks,
Jon@Moots
Posted 1 year ago # -
roadiesean
MemberSatellite, I LOVE the black, it matches my seatcollar. What can I say ? I was sale tempted !!!! Glad Jon and you put me on the straight and narrow !!!! Saving both money and my frame.
Quick question given the above, should I regularly take the headset out, regrease and pop back in ? Because the King is so set and forget I wouldn't normally......
Thanks again
Posted 1 year ago # -
Satellite
MemberRoadiesean,
No don't remove your headset for routine maintenance. If you ever have a bearing problem then you will need to remove it to send back to Chris King (10 year warranty but I have heard they warranty 20-25 year old headsets with no questions). Although you can replace the bearing without removing the Headset. The point of Chris King is to set it and forget it. I only removed one in my whole life to send my VaMoots to have post build S&S Couplers added and I didn’t want any contaminates to end up in the headset. The frame wasn't extremely old 3 or so years but the King Headset looked great when removed with a few insertion scratches. I would personally use Anti-Seize and NOT grease at the Headset/Headtube.
Satellite
Posted 1 year ago # -
Domestique
Memberroadiesean,
One word... Mango! (right on Sat!)
Seriously, I have the standard Black CK headsets on all my Moots and they look great, especially with carbon rims and fork, gives them kinda of a sinister, stealthy look. If you wanted to do something with more of an old school look which is very cool, CK makes one in Silver (looks almost identical to their ti headset). Besides, the ti headset is a 'lot' more expensive for not all that much of a weight savings compared to their standard aluminum headset. Just my .02And as Jon said before, ti on ti is a major 'no no', my mechanic scolded me once for getting ti water bottle bolts to go with my King cages (lol!). I can laugh about it now...
Enjoy the RSL, great bike.
D.
Posted 1 year ago # -
29ner
MemberTwo things wrong with Dom. Ti headset weighs more than the alloy one. A static ti on ti is not a good thing - like the headset. A threaded application is not bad. Use proper prep (anti-sieze or Phil's grease) and a threaded part like a seat binder, or the associated pieces of a YBB shock or a bottle cage bolt is absolutely not an issue and lighter (albeit 10x's the price).
Posted 1 year ago # -
earp
MemberWhen I bought my Compact three years ago the dealer installed a King Ti headset. However, he had to substitute a silver top collar because the Ti collar caused loud creaks. No amounts of anti-seize helped. I've had no problems with the headset since.
Is anybody aware of any long term issues if I leave the Ti headset installed? Should I change it out based on comments made by others on this post?
Posted 1 year ago # -
Quickdraw
MemberJust for my edification... I understand from the thread that the Ti headset does not work with the Ti frame. On the other hand, the Ti seat post on the Ti frame does not create the same problems...Yes... No...? Also, I know Campagnolo uses some Ti bolts in the Super Record Group. Are these a problem where they interface with the frame? Is the issue just creaking or does the Ti on Ti seize the way aluminum will seize on Ti?
Posted 1 year ago # -
29ner
MemberA ti headset WILL work on on a Moots - or any frame/frame material. It's that it's a very tight fit (hence needing pressed in). Once in and with contamination (dirt, sweat, rain) these two parts (the headset and frame) can - and do - 'galvanize' together. Now, please note: it's early, coffee hasn't kicked in yet - galvanize is not the proper meturlogic name - I'm not sure the correct term. Regardless, once in and set, that headset can creak, groan, and (over time) be a real bugger to get out. Anti-seize or not. Now, if you regularily pop your headset in and out you will not have an issue. But who does that??
Alloy headset don't seem to to have nearly the issues if properly installed with anti-seize or quality grease. Plus, alloy headsets are way less expensive and less weight. King's web lists the weight, and I would be bet they are being generous with the ti headsets - they are a chunk for sure. The costs are in the time consuming machining, CNCing and cutter dulling titanium that is shaved away. Plus, big blocks of 6.4 titanium are not inexpensive.
So 2.5 to 3x's the cost and more weight on a part that could 'galvanized'? It's not a status symbol, it's just plain dumb (IMO). The alloy King's are incredibly long lived, good looking, bomb proof, ....and still expensive. I would bet that King sells a 100 to 1 the alloy over the ti version. Probably more.
Seat posts and screws are a different thing. They don't fit nearly as tight and I would imagine are in/out of a frame on a much, much more regular basis than any headset. Even at a once or twice a year basis for cleaning, draining water, removing bottle cages, transporting, etc. Most any frame has a slot that is compressed to clamp the seat post, once this slot is un-compressed (via the tightening bolt), that tube opens and the post is allowed move up/down or be removed...again, not nearly the tight press fit of a headset.
On another note: in my experience, people use way, way too much grease or anti sieze. It's not a case case where some is good, so more is better. 'More' is just a mess and that anti-sieze is nasty stuff that is impossible to wipe away - once it's on your skin or clothes/cloths, etc. Just a thin even coat is all that's needed.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I'm poaching Jon's admin spot for a quick thought from the shop on ti headsets in Moots bikes. Anytime you have a press fit (or interference fit) between two parts it is best if it is not titanium in titanium. Titanium can gall more easily than a lot of materials causing it to "weld" together in the worst case. If there is any movement at all between the two pieces it will creak without proper grease/anti sieze between the two parts. Anytime we design a bike or part that needs a press fit we weld the two pieces together, ie our titanium seat tube inserts.
29ner makes some good points, I agree the alloy headsets King makes are the best, but the corrosion I believe he is refering to is galvanic corrosion. This is a transfer of ions between two metals that have a large enough difference in their anodic index which in turn creates a layer of corrosion. Back before the internet I actually melted aluminum seatposts out of steel frames because the corrosion was so severe. This is easily avoided by removing and cleaning your seatpost regularly, especially if you are riding in wet weather where the grease layer can be washed away. The problem you need to avoid with ti posts in ti frames is grit and dirt. If the post is moved alot with grit and dirt between it and the seat tube it can scratch and gall, but it will not corrode. Again keeping it clean is the key.
Hope this helps.
butch@mootsPosted 1 year ago # -
Satellite
MemberButch,
It is great to read you are still working at Moots, we don't get to hear from you often but when we do it is always a great source of infomation.
I was wondering if you could address Earp's post entry question directly:
Earp wrote, "Is anybody aware of any long term issues if I leave the Ti headset installed? Should I change it out based on comments made by others on this post?"
Worst case the headset cups bond to the headtube the bearing are still replaceable just makes send the headset back to Chris King almost impossible (would have to ship the frame). The only real avenue would be to get the bearing from Chris King and do a self install. The only other downside would be a creak started to form and you have remove the headset.
What do you think Butch?
Satellite
Posted 1 year ago # -
Sat,
To reply to Earp's question....If the ti is working and not causing you to Bjarne Riis your bike into the ditch each time you ride, then leave it in. But, DO disassemble every now and then to make sure it is not seized into the head tube.
Our stance at Moots is to not recommend the ti headset. Through years of builds (and personal encounters) it's not worth the hassle.
If you stay with the AL version, you install and forget about it....
Now...that Bjarne Riis bike throw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFzteK_y1b4
Let me know if you have any other questions.
Thanks,
Jon@Moots
Posted 1 year ago # -
Satellite
MemberEarp,
There you go Jon and Butch are worth listening too; sounds like you need to periodically remove the Ti Headset anyways. So you might as well pull the Ti and replace it with the standard King alloy headset. Even used the Ti Headset goes for a fourtune on the "Bay".
Satellite
Posted 1 year ago # -
earp
MemberThanks all. Especially Sat, 29ner, Jon, and Butch. I've decided to replace the Ti headset with a standard alloy King headset to be on the safe side. It's not a huge investment to make the switch and it will give me peace of mind.
The dealer I bought the bike from recommended the Ti headset. It's disappointing that he wasn't more knowledgeable. I didn't know any better, figured he did since he was an authorized dealer. I just hope that after three years the headset hasn't seized.
Posted 1 year ago #
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